Roles of Women - Response to Article pt 1

[Philos Connections]

I'd like to emphasize that the authors stated that she wrote this article to make women think.... It has indeed made me do so. What about you?

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A friend of mine sent this email to Audrey and Audrey's respnose is below.

Begin forwarded message:

From: "audrey" <[e-mail]
Date: May 21, 2007 9:22:32 AM CDT
Subject: re: Hi!
Reply-To: [e-mail]

First of all, let me thank you for writing and for reading the article. You sound like a very perceptive young woman - the kind I would love to disciple and spend time with! I will try to answer some of your questions. Your concerns are italicized and then I give a response. And let me go ahead and warn you - this response is long. Smiles!

You wrote:

Although I understand and agree with the point that many women today are being encouraged into ministry primarily outside of their homes, how do Beth Moore, Kay Arthur, and some of the others you mentioned directly contribute to this?

The focus of their ministries has not been through the lens of Titus 2. They do in practice what God calls men to do, thus contributing to women in the church being dissatisfied with their pastors and/or usurping their biblical authority. Their ministries also contribute to women seeking Christian careers outside of the home "like Beth" or "like Kay." Also, all of the women I mentioned in the article violate the clear teaching of 1 Timothy 2:9-15 and 1 Corinthians 14 in that they freely teach and exercise authority over men.

I know Beth and Kay personally. I know that Beth was home with her children and didn't start her public ministry until they were older, if not when they had graduated from high school. Kay Arthur personally told me that there are too many young mothers today abdicating their little ones for responsibilities outside the home. She has told my friend the same thing.
I have also heard both Kay & Beth include the message of motherhood and family in their messages. I'm not sure that I understand your criticism "Over the years, I have learned that none of the big name women Bible teachers help women in this area." I think they have. Is it their main ministry platform? No. Is that wrong? I don't think so.

I respectfully disagree with you. It's one thing to "include the message of motherhood and family" - it's quite another thing to teach from the grid of Titus 2. Every woman "Bible teacher" should teach through the Titus 2 lens. God gave the curriculum, not me. The book of Titus was written to tell us how a healthy church is to function. God is very specific in speaking about the pastors/elders qualifications and their leadership in chapter 1.

He turns the corner in chapter 2 and addresses all the groups within the church - one of those groups being the older women. God calls that particular group to be the teachers/disciplers/ encouragers/trainers of the young women. But God doesn't leave it "up for grabs" as to what they are to teach. He lays out His agenda. So whether an older woman teaches through a book of the Bible or on a specific topic to a group of women or whether she is discipling women one on one, she should teach how and what God has said. She is not to usurp the role of her pastor, elders, or husband in this area.

When women step outside of God's parameters, they open themselves up for deception. When God says that He doesn't permit a woman to teach and exercise authority over men, He links it to Eve and her being deceived. I do not necessarily believe that Mrs. Moore or Mrs. Arthur intentionally want to lead women astray but I do believe this is what is happening.

As you said, I'm sure they include the message of motherhood and family in their messages but including it is much different than speaking from the grid of the Titus 2 model. Look again at those verses in Titus - they are found right smack dab in the middle of Paul's letter telling Pastor Titus how the church is to function.

He echoes the same truth when writing to Pastor Timothy. And it all fits with creation and Proverbs. God knows how He wants women's ministry to be carried out. And sometimes I wonder if His heart is grieved over how so many Christian women wish for something - anything other than what God has said. We're still listening to the evil one who whispers, "Did God really say that?"

Remember, the nature of deception is that you don't even know you're deceived.

My intent in writing the article was to get women to think about God's very clear teaching in His Word concerning His heart for women in ministry. I knew it was strong, edgy, and controversial (it shouldn't be controversial) and I thought at first my only audience would be my husband. He is the one who decided for it to be printed and posted.

I wrote it for a number of reasons. I see well-meaning passionate young women who want to be used of God neglecting their homes or feeling guilty because they are not "out there." God never calls us to ministry in contradiction to His Word. God doesn't speak extra-biblical revelation to us. His Word never changes and it transcends time and culture. So as women, we have to answer the question, "What does God's Word say about women's ministry and how it is to function?" As a woman whom God has gifted to teach His Word, I had to ask questions like, "Are there parameters God places on me?"

I don't want to step outside of His will - not for one moment!

As women, we must bring ourselves and our ministries in line with His Word.

You wrote:

I think that teaching on mothering and homemaking is best done one on one anyway. How much can you really learn in an arena filled with 20,000 about cooking healthy meals or nursing babies, or child discipline. The discipleship model works best for this don't you think?

Depends on what you mean by mothering and homemaking and depends on whether an arena filled with 20,000 is all that great. I personally teach women all the time (though I would rather teach children any day of the week, smiles) and I have taught books of the Bible and topics but I teach so women can take the truth of God's Word and apply it to their homes and families and/or in their single life. And just for the record, I believe every woman, whether married or not, needs to understand and know what God says about mothering, being a wife, home and family. As women grow older, it is their God-given responsibility to teach the young women. Nancy DeMoss is a wonderful godly example of a woman who is single yet has done her homework in this area. She does teach through the lens of Titus 2.

Also, to assume that mothering and homemaking is only about cooking healthy meals, nursing babies, and child discipline is missing the point. Mothering and homemaking are best and rightly understood through a sound foundation of biblical doctrine and applying that doctrine to every area of life.

You wrote:

Could you please explain why your article specifically points to these women?

Because they are the big name teachers with huge followings.

You wrote:

Are you saying that their only teaching ministry should be one of ministry to women about a woman's role in the home?

No - God includes purity, kindness, and sensibility. Not to mention the very qualifications of the older women - reverent behavior, control of the tongue, and self-control. Everything a woman has learned as she has grown older should be passed down to the young women. But I will say that it is my observation that women today teach everything BUT a woman's role in the home.

You wrote:

Or are you saying that because women in audiences everywhere are glorifying these ladies, that these same women are themselves reveling in a ministry outside their families.

I cannot say that the women are "reveling in a ministry outside their families." But I do sense that we have a disturbing trend
among Christian women that promotes a mindset that women must get away from their families on a consistent basis to be fulfilled and good and spiritual and all that. Frankly, I get sick and tired about all the "girlfriend time." I just got a brochure wanting me to promote a big girlfriend cruise so we can all laugh and have a good time and be refreshed. Why can't we teach women how to laugh and have a good time and be refreshed in the middle of what God has called us to do? I can't help but think of John the Baptist languishing in prison and sending two of his disciples to Jesus asking, "Are You the Expected One, or do we look for someone else?"

My heart breaks every time I think about that man sitting in that
cell - all because He loved Jesus. Well, Jesus sent back an
encouraging message to John - "Go and report to John what you have seen and heard: the BLIND RECEIVE SIGHT, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the POOR HAVE THE GOSPEL PREACHED TO THEM. Blessed is he who does not take offense at Me."

Jesus didn't release John from prison or "send him on a cruise to
get away." Jesus sent an encouraging word - He let John know
that John had not wasted his life - the message he spent his life
preaching was right. This had to have been encouraging to John.
This had to have brought him much joy and refreshment to him. And as you know, he was beheaded a short time later.

Please understand, I'm not saying that I don't love my girlfriends
and that I don't enjoy being with them. But I want to love my
family and enjoy being with them more. And I want to help young
women find their joy in the Lord and in His priorities for their
lives. I want to see them enjoying their husbands and children -
and more than girlfriend time.

Also, my pastor husband along with many of his colleagues are
concerned that about so many women who return from all these
conferences wanting to be a speaker or Bible teacher like so-n-so or counting the days until the next big event - rather than being recharged to serve God in the most sacred place of home.

Another brochure I received a few years ago was called Global
Celebration for Women. I was not impressed. It was all about
exalting women, calling attention to women, celebrating women.

I think women's conferences can be good IF they focus on God's
design for women as outlined in Scripture.

But at this conference there was not one workshop or main session devoted to biblical mothering, grandmothering, being a biblical wife, or the home. Why not?

Across the globe ~ MOST women are mothers and wives. If this was a global celebration for women ~ why not teach on this role that God has not only given to most women, but that most women have accepted?

Instead they were celebrating what God has done for women; they were rejoicing in women's contributions to kingdom building
(perhaps they hit it there); they were motivating and valuing women in their giftedness; exciting women for evangelism (I personally believe that we need to excite women to evangelize their own children); and equipping women to touch the world.

Not a word about touching the world through raising a godly
heritage. Mary and Elizabeth touched the world by raising their boys.

So yes, I am concerned about the Christian careerism/feminism that has infiltrated the church where even believing women are not convinced of the timelessness of God's Word as it concerns women's ministry.

Now it seems to be all about "getting away," "me time," "time
with the girls" - it seems to be becoming the drive and focus of
women's lives and even Christian women's lives - to an extreme.

The constant influx of these brochures try to pull me and the
women in my church away from our homes and church responsibilities to attend some conference somewhere with a bunch of women - a conference that will cost us a lot of money and time away from the very place God has called us to be. Another one was offered last summer a couple of summers ago-

$114/person ($99.00 for groups of 4 or more), $29 for extra
seminar, $29 for extra evening seminar, $12.00 for Praise and
Worship concert, $12.00 for "Ask the experts" teen evening

All this plus hotel, travel, meals . . and time. No refunds.
Please understand, I'm not saying that there's never a place for
women's retreats or conferences but they should be geared to
helping women do what God has called us to do. And they shouldn't be the drive and focus of a woman's life. Real ministry happens in the everyday, in the throws of what seems to be mundane - seeing, trusting, and believing God as we diaper babies, lose sleep, break up sibling fights, serve our husbands, clean our bathrooms, mentor young women walking through life.

We need a generation of older women who know doctrine - who know God's Word and can take it and show young women how it applies to their everyday lives.

Because I am a ministry wife with five children, I have done
my homework in biblical women's ministry.

As a young woman growing up in a pastor's home, now as a pastor's wife, as a ministry wife serving alongside my husband through our years with Campus Crusade at Duke University, and our years at DTS and Southwestern Baptist Seminary where my husband earned his doctorate, my years of teaching children and high school girls, and as a mother teaching my own children, I know that the messages sent by the church seem to be the same ones sent by the world. I do not believe this is the intent of believers - yet this is what is happening.

You wrote:

I'm not sure that I am connecting that principle you are presenting in your article with these women and the way they are currently living their lives, running their ministries, and
delivering their messages. Can you clarify?

Since I don't know them personally, I can observe from an
objective standpoint. My husband can observe from an objective
standpoint. And I wonder as a ministry wife and mother myself -
should I leave my home on a consistent basis to minister to women?
I mean, really? Should I teach men just because they want to come hear me? Should I teach like a man?

I didn't even cover the issues of women teaching men in my
original article. I didn't even cover the helper role of a wife in
the article and how so many women are the heads of their own
ministries and who even knows where their husbands fit in.

God has clearly spelled out women's ministry and how He wants it to function in the pastoral epistles. He knows what women need - not necessarily what they want.

Although there are many women who do not like what I teach - I
know God has called me to teach it. I also know that many women are absolutely starved for solid biblical teaching on women's roles in the home and church.

I looked for those kinds of women when I was a young mother - and my frustration led me to cry out to the Lord and ask Him to show me how to be a wife and mother His way - for my own family and for the generations of mothers who would come after me.

This is not to say I didn't have positive examples and good women in my life. I did. But they didn't necessarily have God's
perspective on these issues. And the few who did didn't understand the doctrine behind it.

You wrote:

I agree with you that there is so little encouragement, teaching, and discipleship from older women to younger women but does that mean that every time an older woman encourages a younger woman by saying that the day is coming when there will be more to her life than diapers, is this wrong?

I think the better approach for the older woman would be to
encourage the young woman that days of diapers are every bit as important as some imagined distant day in the future. What if that distant day never comes? We are not promised one more minute. I could rather tell a young mom that diaper days are critical, crucial and very important work.

It's interesting that your letter comes to me as I am keeping my
grandson for a few days while my son and daughter-in-law are in
Chicago for her brother's wedding. My life right now is diapers -
yet so much more. The day has come for my life to be filled with
diapers again. A young mother should be told that diapering is
ministry - see, a woman's perspective needs to be adjusted rather than promising that some future day out there that supposedly is better. Even though older women don't mean to, they are sending the message that life with diapers is a nothing life. God knew what He was doing when Mary's older woman, Elizabeth, was diapering at the same time as she was. They were both doing kingdom work right then and there - not just preparing for the day when Jesus and John could be released and they could pursue other things. In fact we see Mary all throughout the life of Jesus - up to the cross and then in the Upper Room at Pentecost. Her mothering never ended. And since she had other children, it is safe to assume that she had plenty of grandchildren to diaper as she became the older woman of her generation.

Somehow we've got to get past the thinking that the only kingdom work is the big time or girlfriend time. While Mary mothered Jesus - it was quiet - but it was kingdom work. Only one young mother raised THE SAVIOR, but all the others are raising little "saviors" to be used of God in this wicked and perverse generation. None of us would have ever told Mary that "her day" was coming while she had the privilege of changing the diaper of Jesus.

And while we're speaking of diapers - what's wrong with that
anyway? What's wrong with rocking and cuddling and answering 100+ questions, and wiping snotty noses, cleaning up throw-up, and playing blocks on the floor? This is kingdom work. And it's not
just something to get through so you can get on to something
bigger. This is big.

You wrote:

I am perusing your site and looking at the ministry you have to wives and mothers. The lady that you mentioned in your article that encouraged to hope for ministry...was she so terrible?

I knew her and her children. It is very sad what happened for the
sake of "ministry." She was not terrible - but her perspective was.

You do have a wonderful ministry today.

My "ministry" today is just the broader scope of what I have
always done. I learned to teach the Bible by teaching my own
children, children in my neighborhood (CEF club), and children at
church. The messages I teach today were first taught to children
because I figured if God entrusted children to me (whether my own or the neighbor children who showed up at my door), He wanted me to take their little lives seriously. In fact, when the "ministry" to women in my church took shape, it was because younger women were asking me to teach mothering things. I sat down and asked the Lord to help me write what He had been teaching me so that I could invite them into my home and teach the Bible as it related to women. So, what you have been perusing on my site is the outgrowth of a 6-week Bible study in my home where my older children kept my younger ones upstairs.

When our church built our first building - the Bible study
blossomed with my boys as the sound guys and as helpers in the
children's ministry. Today my youngest son carries on the
tradition - he's the only one of my children still at home. It
truly was and is a family ministry. Every time I've been invited
to teach at a woman's conference, or retreat, or banquet, my
daughter has accompanied me - she was and is my very first
"younger" woman. I remember once when I was driving up to speak on biblical modesty at a mother/daughter banquet, I saw the immodest women and panicked. How in the world were they going to tolerate what God wanted me to teach and what they had asked me to teach? I expressed that thought to my then high school daughter as I was trying to decide what other easier-to-hear message I could whip out. My own daughter challenged me, "Mom, these are the very women who NEED to hear this!"

You wrote:

It seems a bit harsh. Maybe it should be....maybe because there are so many unbalanced women out there, you feel the need to shake them up a bit.

Yes, I know it was a bit harsh. And yes, it was a tough thing to
write about. I copy/pasted the next four paragraphs from my
website in which I addressed this:

I took a risk when I submitted to my husband's leadership and
posted this article. I know it. I wrote the journal after having
had yet another conversation with a young mother who was
contemplating taking a ministry position which would pull her from
her home. It reminded me once again of the need for instructing
God's women of His high and holy calling of wife and mother - which
is a fulltime job. There's a time to be silent and a time to speak.
I had nothing to gain and everything to lose by writing and posting
the article. I know that too.

A few women have written and scolded me especially because I
referenced four famous women. I accept it and respect them for it.
I only named these women because they are in the public and have
such huge followings. This is appropriate - just as it is
appropriate for anyone to publicly reference and express
disagreement with me. And please understand, I am not saying that
these women are not sincere or that they are not good mothers. I'm
sure they are both!

I wrote from a perspective I believe we need to think through and I
also know that if I dish it out, I must be able to take it - not
only take it but think it through myself. I know I won't be able to
answer each of you personally but with time, I hope to write and
post another journal to deal with issues that you have raised. Yet
far more than the scoldings have been those mama's who have been
encouraged. And their letters remind me to press on.


Over the years, when I have been asked to teach at women's events
(which I occasionally accept), I am always asked, "What is your
fee?" I have no fee . . . as least not the way most women think. My
fee is to see children get their mama's back, husbands get their
wives back, and churches get their older women back. My passion is
to see us as women think, really think biblically as it concerns
the way we live out what we say we believe rather than follow the
trends in the culture. We've abandoned the home - on a tidal wave -
a wave so huge that we just ride it without really thinking. We
must - as believing women - think through the messages we are
sending to a new generation of young women. We must place ourselves
under the microscope of God's Word.

You wrote:

[/i]Can't we have both? Can't we have women who have raised their children helping us go deeper in the Word.[/i][/color]

God has placed parameters around women's ministry. We need to
spend more time helping women learn how to go deeper into the Word
as it relates to biblical womanhood in all spheres of life.


(See part two for the continuation of this response)